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strong balanced 2NT or precision 1C?

#1 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 23:39

The question is to open 2NT with 20-21 balanced hands, or put them into precision 1C.

I was in the 1C camp before because it
1)allows to stay low opposite junk
2)save space for slam bidding

But after examining some hands my idea has changed, 2NT looks to have a slight edge, at least under traditional 1C response structure.
1)2NT prevents opponents from lead directive overcalls,so you will make a lot more 3NTs due to inferior leads.
2)Slam biddings surprisingly break even because these hands is not easy to bid after overcalls.

These arguments also works for Mexican 2m opening, which (as I know) is becoming more popular these days.

Any ideas?
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 23:48

View Postyunling, on 2020-October-31, 23:39, said:


These arguments also works for Mexican 2m opening, which (as I know) is becoming more popular these days.


Why do I have serious doubts about this claim?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#3 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2020-November-01, 09:24

I follow the Rodwell rule: if Rodwell after a zillion hours of research thinks something is better, it is better
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-November-01, 11:24

My thought is almost always "it doesn't matter which is better in isolation. Does it make the other bids easier or better?"

The whole point behind Precision is to take a bunch of hands out of every other call, in particular 1M, so you don't have to worry about them. The fact that 1 is a good call is secondary to the fact that you don't have to resolve "is it a 12-count 5M332 or a 20-high 6M331?" when you bid 1.

I like the fact that I can put an aggressive pre-empt in 2NT by putting those hands into 1; but I don't really care about those very few hands (either way). The great benefit of 2NT is that you take those hands out of 1, and specifically, you have a nice gap in your balanced openers right where you want it - "17-19, or "22+". That almost certainly saves a lot of sequences, with or without interference, out of the big club opener, for better use (or for "lose sequences to interference"). If I moved to 2NT 20-21, that would be why, not "what is better when I do have 20-21."
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#5 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2020-November-02, 10:40

View Postyunling, on 2020-October-31, 23:39, said:

But after examining some hands my idea has changed, 2NT looks to have a slight edge, at least under traditional 1C response structure.
1)2NT prevents opponents from lead directive overcalls,so you will make a lot more 3NTs due to inferior leads.
2)Slam biddings surprisingly break even because these hands is not easy to bid after overcalls.

I’m not sure about your 1C structure is, but for me, I can stop at 1N (or as if I opened 1N, ie transfers, etc) with both the 16-18 and 19-21 ranges. Yes, this allows the opps to overcall 1C when they might not have otherwise been able to if I opened 2N, but at the same time, I can do much better slam bidding via relays if uncontested and have a better idea of if I want to explore while still below 3N.

I think uncontested that it it’s clear 1C is better, so if you are fairly sure you’re losing on frequent competitive situations due to not having a split balanced range, that would be a good reason to consider the natural 2N. Against this, when one hand is balanced, it’s more often others will be too, so your opponents are less likely to have a good hand for interference when you’ve got a big balanced hand than for example if you have a big one suiter.

Or you could play 2N as 12-14 like Zia did in some high variance tournament where he was swinging ;).
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#6 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-November-05, 17:45

View Postyunling, on 2020-October-31, 23:39, said:

The question is to open 2NT with 20-21 balanced hands, or put them into precision 1C.

I was in the 1C camp before because it
1)allows to stay low opposite junk
2)save space for slam bidding

But after examining some hands my idea has changed, 2NT looks to have a slight edge, at least under traditional 1C response structure.
1)2NT prevents opponents from lead directive overcalls,so you will make a lot more 3NTs due to inferior leads.
2)Slam biddings surprisingly break even because these hands is not easy to bid after overcalls.

One of the "arguments" for putting 2NT balanced hands into 1 is that it is so "easy" to show this hand over a 1 response. This allows opener to use a 1 rebid as a relay so that opener can easily describe all the possible balanced hand ranges without difficulty.

Of course, responder can derail those plans by having a positive response, or the opponents can foul up those plans with interference. So, how do you distinguish a 17-19 (a common range) balanced hand from a 20-21 balanced hand. Or from a 22+ balanced hand? Relay systems have some merit but what relay system, and what pair is going to spend the time to learn it well enough to have a net positive?
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#7 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2020-November-06, 12:52

View Postjohnu, on 2020-November-05, 17:45, said:

how do you distinguish a 17-19 (a common range) balanced hand from a 20-21 balanced hand. Or from a 22+ balanced hand?

I use 1C-1D(including all negatives)-1N as one range and 1C-1D-1H(art)-1S(waiting)-1N for the other of the two lowest balanced ranges. 22+ would bid higher at one point or another. You need to have a few more systems to allow 1C-1D-1H artificial to work, but it抯 not too bad.
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#8 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-November-06, 14:02

John pointed out your trick (and mine), over a 1 response. The bit you removed from his question was:

Quote

Of course, responder can derail those plans by having a positive response, or the opponents can foul up those plans with interference.
I keep trying to bid 1 after partner's positives or the opponent's preempts. They keep not letting me, for some reason.
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-November-06, 15:06

View Postjohnu, on 2020-November-05, 17:45, said:

the opponents can foul up those plans with interference. So, how do you distinguish a 17-19 (a common range) balanced hand from a 20-21 balanced hand. Or from a 22+ balanced hand?

I'd use ideas from my "different" defense against 2-level suit preempts.

E.g.:

1-1-(2x); ?:

X = takeout including 20-21/24+ BAL
...2N+: non-standard
2N: possibly ART but NF and 22-23 if BAL
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#10 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2020-November-07, 15:55

View Postmycroft, on 2020-November-06, 14:02, said:

I keep trying to bid 1 after partner's positives or the opponent's preempts. They keep not letting me, for some reason.

If your partner makes a positive response instead of 1D, you are better placed. You know a fair bit about his shape, his values, and in almost all cases, you will be well below 2N (which you might have opened instead). There will be space to using asking bids, relays, etc, to taste starting from a lower level and hence you can find out more information. With a relay system, you will be able to get partners full shape after a positive response, and often be able to get an ask about his general strength as well, all below 3N.
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#11 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-November-08, 06:07

View Postrbforster, on 2020-November-07, 15:55, said:

If your partner makes a positive response instead of 1D, you are better placed. You know a fair bit about his shape, his values, and in almost all cases, you will be well below 2N (which you might have opened instead). There will be space to using asking bids, relays, etc, to taste starting from a lower level and hence you can find out more information. With a relay system, you will be able to get partners full shape after a positive response, and often be able to get an ask about his general strength as well, all below 3N.

As I pointed out in my post, few players play a relay system after 1. Not those using the original Precision club variants, nor most of the current variants including Standard Modern Precision. Nor do many players use the original Precision asking bids, or the Super Precision asking bids.

I agree that if you are playing a relay system and don't get much interference, it doesn't make much difference because opener is usually asking, not telling.
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#12 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-November-08, 07:39

Even playing natural methods after a strong club, you are way ahead of opening 2NT if you don't get interference. You can have auctions like:

1 - 1M - 2M and start cuebidding, instead of 2NT - xfer - accept - 3NT - 4M and responder has to start investigating at the four level.

Or you can have auctions like:

1 - 1M - 1NT - 2m - 3m

And find a possible minor suit slam, instead of 2NT - xfer - accept - 3NT - pass or maybe 2NT - xfer - accept - 4m and start investigating a level higher.

Basically every auction is going to be better here!

The advantage of opening 2NT is that you keep opponents out of the auction. You give opponents a blind lead over 2NT - 3NT for example, instead of having a slow sequence where 4th seat could make a lead-directional overcall or double. You also avoid some annoying sequences like 1-(3) where opener may get "endplayed" into bidding 3NT which could fail (if responder has nothing) or miss a superior major-suit fit (responder will be guessing whether to remove to a 5-card major for example).

My own preference is definitely to put these hands in 1, but I've seen elite pairs use both styles.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#13 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-November-16, 21:40

I'm in the open 2NT camp. Putting all the balanced ranges into 1c gets to ambiguous, especially against preemption.
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