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What does 2 clubs show? 3 clubs?

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:15




What does 2 clubs show/

what does 3 clubs show?
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:47

Clubs, likely 6 unless something like 1=4=3=5.

More clubs, definitely unbalanced.

3NT is a totally nullo bid by a passed hand, just begging to go about -500 with no running tricks.

For that matter 2NT is highly questionable.

You should be passing 2 pretty much any time you don't have 6 spades.

If my opponents perpetrated this auction at my table I would be doubling 3NT on any 13 cards and expecting to collect at least +300.
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#3 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:47

  • 1: I have an opener, and some clubs.
  • 1: I have 6-10 and 4+ spades.
  • 2: I have real clubs (6 if you're me), probably not 3 spades, probably not balanced, probably not 17 high.
  • 2NT: Okay, how about 3NT?
  • 3: No, really, this is a minimum, and only plays in clubs. I should have opened this 3 opposite a passed hand.
  • 3NT: I don't believe you.

To give North credit, hearing 3 could up-value his xx and scattered cards into "well, then, clubs should run". But I would expect that what it actually means is "I have a club void, and I don't trust you." Whether North has reason to not trust South (say, she's the person who has to rebid KJTxx "so you know I'm not short, pard", and runs away from NT on a stiff spade and cards, but doesn't want to introduce her KTxx now) is an open question.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:59

View Postmycroft, on 2020-September-25, 12:47, said:

  • 1: I have an opener, and some clubs.
  • 1: I have 6-10 and 4+ spades.
  • 2: I have real clubs (6 if you're me), probably not 3 spades, probably not balanced, probably not 17 high.
  • 2NT: Okay, how about 3NT?
  • 3: No, really, this is a minimum, and only plays in clubs. I should have opened this 3 opposite a passed hand.
  • 3NT: I don't believe you.

To give North credit, hearing 3 could up-value his xx and scattered cards into "well, then, clubs should run". But I would expect that what it actually means is "I have a club void, and I don't trust you." Whether North has reason to not trust South (say, she's the person who has to rebid KJTxx "so you know I'm not short, pard", and runs away from NT on a stiff spade and cards, but doesn't want to introduce her KTxx now) is an open question.


The other interpretation is if you don't open all flat 11s, something like xxxx, Axx, Axx, Kxx where 3N might just be cold now you might have put them off a spade lead. When 3 is bid you feel confident of the 6th one so Axxxxx is decent odds.
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 16:57

View Postmycroft, on 2020-September-25, 12:47, said:

  • 1: I have an opener, and some clubs.
  • 1: I have 6-10 and 4+ spades.
  • 2: I have real clubs (6 if you're me), probably not 3 spades, probably not balanced, probably not 17 high.
  • 2NT: Okay, how about 3NT?
  • 3: No, really, this is a minimum, and only plays in clubs. I should have opened this 3 opposite a passed hand.
  • 3NT: I don't believe you.

To give North credit, hearing 3 could up-value his xx and scattered cards into "well, then, clubs should run". But I would expect that what it actually means is "I have a club void, and I don't trust you." Whether North has reason to not trust South (say, she's the person who has to rebid KJTxx "so you know I'm not short, pard", and runs away from NT on a stiff spade and cards, but doesn't want to introduce her KTxx now) is an open question.

Obviously the meanings depend on style, but:

1C: I have an opening hand. Club length not defined, but (for most people) I have at least 3. Personally, in my partnerships, I promise as few as 2, but not in the I/A forum

1S: I have a 1S response. Very few experienced players require 6 for this response. I would never pass 1C with, say, KJxxx xxxx xxx x. Unlikely to hold 6S, but depends on our style for opening 2S in first seat.

2C: depends on style, in terms of does a 1N rebid promise at least 2 spades? With, say, x AJxx Kxx AJxxx, many would rebid 2C, so for most, the 2C call shows 5 or more. The point range is very wide. Top end is just below a reverse (with a 1=4=3=5 hand, for example, I抎 expect 2C could deliver up to 16 hcp, and with a 6 card suit, as much as an unattractive 15)

2N: I have 4-5 spades, fewer than 4 card in either red suit, and a hand worth around 10-11 hcp, altho some pairs tend to open most 11 counts (in my partnerships, we very rarely pass even horrible 11 counts, but that style requires agreement and considerable systemic adjustments ... 14-16 notrumps, responder needs a great 13 to force to game, etc) responder should have at least some expectation of red suit stoppers. Q10xx Kxx Axxx Qx would be a reasonable 2N.

3C: please let me play 3C. I heard you. I don抰 think you can make 3N, and I think 3C is better even than 2N

3N: I don抰 trust you at all, partner. I抦 in charge of all bidding decisions.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 01:57

1: 10-20 HCP Either a club suit or could be three and balanced.
1: 5+HCP 4+ spades.
2: Very likely a six card suit, 10-15 HCP.
2NT: 10-11 (semi)balanced, bid 3NT if you are near maximum.
3: Minimum opener with a six, good chance of a seven card suit.
3NT: Punt. We're playing against AL78 and punts usually work against him, even bad ones, or we're a married couple and I can look at your hand and see if it has play.
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#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 04:03

The other commentators have defined the bids in the auction. Furthermore, North/South should also be picking up inferences that East/West have failed to make any intervention over their bids, even at the one level. That, in itself, is helping North/South decide that 3NT probably has some play on the balance of odds, even though the auction looks slightly off-kilter.
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#8 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 05:18

I like the comment "3♣: No, really, this is a minimum, and only plays in clubs. I should have opened this 3♣ opposite a passed hand." and agree to it.

However, if there is partnership agreement 3rd hand 3 has to be less than a minimum 1 opening, then this 3 should show 6 clubs with at least 2 of AKQ, and then North, with a 3 card support with 1 of the 3 top clubs and two stop (I.e. Axxx, XXX, Axx, Qxx, has a reasonable guess at a three aces, 6 clubs 3NT, south having AKxxxx and the 3rd ace, or similar.
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#9 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 05:57

View Postdickiegera, on 2020-September-25, 12:15, said:




What does 2 clubs show/

what does 3 clubs show?


2 is a sign off as is 3 indicating a minimum opener and unsuitable for No Trumps.
Opener should have a 6+ club suit. and no more than 14 hcp
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#10 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 06:59

The auction could be rational enough given Cyberyeti's example hand of a club king, two red Aces, and four or five small spades.

I'm more used to 4 card 1C openings, but it would seem likely that 3C is a 7 card suit rather than 6 (a semi balanced hand with 6 clubs might pass 2NT and hope). Cyberyeti's example offers reasonable play for 3NT opposite xx, xx, xx, Axxxxxx (and any high cards to justify 1C rather than 3C can't hurt).
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 07:46

View PostDouglas43, on 2020-September-26, 06:59, said:

The auction could be rational enough given Cyberyeti's example hand of a club king, two red Aces, and four or five small spades.

I'm more used to 4 card 1C openings, but it would seem likely that 3C is a 7 card suit rather than 6 (a semi balanced hand with 6 clubs might pass 2NT and hope). Cyberyeti's example offers reasonable play for 3NT opposite xx, xx, xx, Axxxxxx (and any high cards to justify 1C rather than 3C can't hurt).


I think most people will open 5 small spades, 2 aces and a king, so 4 is more likely, but the danger hands are x, Qxx, Qxx, AQJxxx and any with a club suit without the A, AQJxxx and a K will make 3N. For us, playing a weak NT a stiff spade is very likely as we might open a weak NT on 2(32)6. We would never bid 2N here because we play a 2 artificial inv+ force, so 3 over this specifically denies a second suit and shows a minimum opener.
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#12 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 09:25

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-25, 12:47, said:

Clubs, likely 6 unless something like 1=4=3=5.

More clubs, definitely unbalanced.

3NT is a totally nullo bid by a passed hand, just begging to go about -500 with no running tricks.

For that matter 2NT is highly questionable.

You should be passing 2 pretty much any time you don't have 6 spades.

If my opponents perpetrated this auction at my table I would be doubling 3NT on any 13 cards and expecting to collect at least +300.


xxxxx Axx Axx Qx will make 3NT a big proportion of the cases when partner voluntarily bids 3.

Of course this hand will pass 2.
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 09:48

Sir,
I can not believe this auction.1is a 3rd seat opener.Responder has bid then 2NT over 2.He has expressed his hand fully.The 3 bid is asking responder to let the opener play in that.The 3NT bid is a gamblers bid in my opinion.Opener is not a novice not to accept the invitation.
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#14 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 20:28

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-September-26, 09:25, said:

xxxxx Axx Axx Qx will make 3NT a big proportion of the cases when partner voluntarily bids 3.

Of course this hand will pass 2.


If they've stumbled into one by accident, so be it. -400 is already a MP zero.

That's the nice thing about doubling on an auction like that... it is, in theory, basically all upside... it can't turn a zero into...more of a zero, but it can turn an average result (+100, say) into a top.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 02:35

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-26, 20:28, said:

If they've stumbled into one by accident, so be it. -400 is already a MP zero.

That's the nice thing about doubling on an auction like that... it is, in theory, basically all upside... it can't turn a zero into...more of a zero, but it can turn an average result (+100, say) into a top.


I'm wary of doubling bad players on an auction like this, you often find that everybody else opened responder's hand and you've turned an average into a zero, or even more annoyingly a good board into a zero because they made 9 when everybody else made 10.
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 07:08

View PostAL78, on 2020-September-26, 01:57, said:

1: 10-20 HCP Either a club suit or could be three and balanced.
1: 5+HCP 4+ spades.
2: Very likely a six card suit, 10-15 HCP.
2NT: 10-11 (semi)balanced, bid 3NT if you are near maximum.
3: Minimum opener with a six, good chance of a seven card suit.
3NT: Punt. We're playing against AL78 and punts usually work against him, even bad ones, or we're a married couple and I can look at your hand and see if it has play.
DickieGera "What does 2 clubs show/what does 3 clubs show?"
+++++++++++++++++++++
Agree with CyberYeti and AL78:
Opener has something like x x x x x A A x x x x x x
Dealer has something like x x x x x A x Q x x K x x
DavidKok might be right: his 2N bid is braver than his 3N bid :)

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