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Precision 2D 10-15 not allowed in ACBL Open Chart

#1 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2020-May-25, 20:00

Had an expert who is a director tell me a Precision 2D 3 suited short in Diamonds is not allowed in open chart if 10 hcp included

here are relevant items from ACBL Chart

c. "Average Strength": A hand that has at least 10 HCP or meets the "Rule of 19"

9. *** An Artificial Three-Suited opening bid (with or without known shortness) that does not show at least Average Strength.

Says average strength which includes 10 hcp
His claim was convention needs to meet rule of 19 but it is an or; so meeting 10 hcp requirement is sufficient.

So clearly legal IMO

I believe this is even legal in Basic or Basic+
<edit> Yes in Basic they even put in a special rule to allow Precision 2D. "A 2D opening showing 0-1 diamonds along with 3+ cards in all other suits, as long as it shows at least Average Strength.</end edit>
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#2 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2020-May-26, 08:22

I think you're right and he's wrong.

The descriptions I've found of Precision 2 say that the strength range is 11-15. But since the chart says "at least average strength", it seems like 10-15 should be allowed as well.

#3 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-May-26, 16:18

Clearly the director did not know what he was talking about, and/or hadn't comprehended the new Convention Charts. The Rule of 19 was added to allow players to open with less than 10 HCP with more distribution.
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-May-27, 15:21

Having said that, if you call it Precision 2D (which you shouldn't, even if you play it strictly traditionally; you should be describing your agreement, not using a convention name), and you play it as 10-15, you are misinforming people, who would expect 11.

I know people who play "Precision", but their strong club is 16+ or 6+ AK controls, and yes, they open three aces and spaces 1C. It was legal under the old GCC (and I think legal under the new Open chart), but I told them that explaining it as Precision would be misinformation as well as 'not Full Disclosure'.

But yes, a 10 count is Average strength (but don't do it on KQT6 KJT9 8 T983, even though that's *clearly* stronger than many 10-count 4414s) per the CCs.
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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2020-June-01, 08:39

View Postmycroft, on 2020-May-27, 15:21, said:

Having said that, if you call it Precision 2D (which you shouldn't, even if you play it strictly traditionally; you should be describing your agreement, not using a convention name), and you play it as 10-15, you are misinforming people, who would expect 11.

Of course we described the bid and did not use the name Precision 2D. That is how they knew it was 10-15 because we stated that along with being a 3-suiter short in diamonds and often having 5 clubs
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-June-01, 11:10

Of course you did. I'm sorry for any implication. I meant to say "the TD might have a point about misinformation, and was explaining badly." And then I "explained badly".
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#7 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2020-June-02, 06:57

View Postmycroft, on 2020-May-27, 15:21, said:

Having said that, if you call it Precision 2D (which you shouldn't, even if you play it strictly traditionally; you should be describing your agreement, not using a convention name), and you play it as 10-15, you are misinforming people, who would expect 11.

I know people who play "Precision", but their strong club is 16+ or 6+ AK controls, and yes, they open three aces and spaces 1C. It was legal under the old GCC (and I think legal under the new Open chart), but I told them that explaining it as Precision would be misinformation as well as 'not Full Disclosure'.

But yes, a 10 count is Average strength (but don't do it on KQT6 KJT9 8 T983, even though that's *clearly* stronger than many 10-count 4414s) per the CCs.

Not saying anything about regulating 10 pt mini roman but mentioning personal observation. In my first KO final pard opened 2D five times holding 10 points on each occasion. This lost a partial swing every time. As expected, it seems that I held too much (yet not enough) of the wrong thing. Those 30 imps were enough to overwhelm our pluses<sigh>.
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#8 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2020-June-10, 10:56

i have played this for 40 yrs and played it 10-13 hcp
some TDs dont like it when you open with 9
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